The Evil (Natham)

pcpaf · Post by **pcpaf** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:17 am

I know that I have only myself to blaime that Loli got killed. 
With the drow I were stupid not to drink a healing potion after I got away from the drow. I guess I were tired and were thinking to slow. But Loli did get the drow to near death all alone 2 times. Second time I went out alone, and got killed bye a Huge and a Giant Spider. Well she is dead.....

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pcpaf>pcpaf</A> at: 1/27/04 12:35 am

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:46 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Instead of allowing players to actually populate it most people SIT around the well if they cant get a group to go on the odd hunting expidition with.<hr></blockquote> 
 
Players are allowed to go anywhere they want. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The Vast can be very very boring at times...I dont find sitting at the well for hours my cup of tea. I do enjoy it at times but im not a sitter. I am a do'er. As a result I hunt if im bored or go looking for dead bodys to collect OR something to keep me active mentally in the game and not fall asleep.<hr></blockquote> 
 
I think you just gave the answer to your own gripe there. Don't sit around, no one is making you. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>IF some of the REALLY empty spaces were used to create backdrops for the players...LIKE a evil encampment for Natham and others, think of the RP possibiltys for those that wish to hang out there<hr></blockquote> 
 
Those "really" empty spaces have things slotted to fill them, and other spaces are constantly being added. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>WHY is the well the limit?<hr></blockquote> 
 
It's not, the world is quite large, and players can go anywhere. As it is right now, we have about 230 areas. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It seems to me a handful of players are PART of the fabric of the Vast, the rest of us are hopefuls<hr></blockquote> 
 
Maybe they HAVE been a part of things for a long time. What are you doing to catch the attention of the DMs? What will make the DMs take notice of your character? 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>So what can be so hard about making a camp/temple/guild etc etc for various players or group factions?<hr></blockquote> 
 
It's not hard. I have asked for input on a guild of adventurers who might like to get regular jobs escorting PCs and NPCs alike with the hopes there it may get the ball rolling on these kinds of things. Sounds like a mercenary guild to me.... 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>BUT why does it take a year, and NO commitment by the DMs to see this done?<hr></blockquote> 
 
What exactly are you talking about here? Could you be a little more clear in your ranting? 
 
FYI, the world began as a private endeavor in mid February, 2003; it did not run as a public server until mid April, 2003, and that was an open beta; and it did not leave beta and become official until June 29, 2003. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>It can be so much more alive IF the players were givin more lattitude in the game world to actually BE part of it.<hr></blockquote> 
 
If you would get involved with things a little more, you would see how alive it actually is. I'm not going to hold your hand and escort you into every group, it's your job to build your character and build relationships with the other characters. 
 
Players are given "lattitude", and areas have been added, or modified to reflect changes brought about by in game PC actions. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>AND it isnt hard to do, its quite easy to build temples, camps, a secret hideout for thieves etc<hr></blockquote> 
 
New stuff is being added all the time. There is in fact a "shady underground" being planned in the Landing which will serve as a starting point for our less reputable characters. There are many new things in the works, and it all will live up to the high standards of quality to which we hold ourselves. Do you want it done right, or do you want it done now? 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Why cant Natham be the factional leader of a group of evil players? <hr></blockquote> 
 
No offense to Natham here, but he can't even keep his "evilness" a secret, how will he keep an entire organization secret? He will be a target for every good character wishing to defeat the "great evil guild". 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have also seen players spit on Natham, and on other servers id have killed the miscreants without thinking twice about it, that WOULD be reality<hr></blockquote> 
 
And reality would likely continue with your public beheading for murder. Even if you are "evil", what is realistic about open murder in a lawful town? A truly evil character would always be behind the scenes, one step ahead of things pulling the strings. He would certainly not want others to know he was evil. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>by the same token you can impliment subdual damage instead and at least give a token bow to realisim<hr></blockquote> 
 
The reason subdual damage is not implimented, is because it would, over night, degenerate into an OOC free-for-all of players killing other players solely for their gear. There are other servers that use subdual, and have gangs of low level PCs running around taking out high level PCs for their superior equipment - nice "community". 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>In reality murder, feuds, grudges, and factional disputes would take lives<hr></blockquote> 
 
Thus we have PK by DM permission. It is the DM's job to make sure any PK is strictly in character, and with good, story-based reason. "Because I am evil" is not a good reason, we want cleverly played evil characters, not run of the mill murderers.

<hr />They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:47 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Yes, without a very specific starting locale and base for any characters with obviously nefarious motives, playing effective, believable evil, is made even more difficult.<hr></blockquote> 
 
It's in the works.

<hr />They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:56 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>2. With the "no-PK" rule Natham cannot be as truly evil as a priest of Velsharoon would be.<hr></blockquote> 
 
Followers of Velsharoon typically spend their time conducting research, unearthing the dead, and furthering the collective knowledge of their faith. They practice their magic on the dead, creating and improving various undead servants. Some of the more personable clerics heal the ills of the populace in order to raise funds for their faith's collective research. 

<hr />They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

Psilax · Post by **Psilax** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:16 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 
To use an example. If some young punk went and spit on Al Capone in the middle of the street in Chicago, Al Capone probably would not have killed him right there. He probably would have ordered a hit on the punk in a dark alley one night. 
 
<hr></blockquote> 
 
Dragon Dale is not a corrupt American city with a population of millions. It is a small, Lawful community protected by a dedicated Captain of the Gaurd. 
 
As far as this second death you speak of that Loli suffered in the Spider caves, I don't know anything about that either. But I have seen it happen before that people have gone in there alone or with only a small group and have died, not realizing how dangerous Spiders can be. 
 
Don't blame a death on a DM. And don't even assume that a DM was involved unless the DM tells you. Just because you happen to die while a DM is logged in to the server, it doesn't necessarily mean their attention was on you. 
 
-Psi

pcpaf · Post by **pcpaf** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:51 am

Psilax. 
 
I don´t blame the DMs for the 2 times Loli died. 
I got her killed. 
I´m the oldest player on the server who play almost evry day. 
I know Spiders are dangerus and I were looking for the drow all alone in the spider cave. The chance of getting out of there alive were 1% if a DM had time to be there. 
Giant spiders don´t get spawned in the spider cave. So a DM must have put it in there. 
 
Ohhh maybe I shall make a new post about Loli <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> 
 
Have fun

Psilax · Post by **Psilax** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:12 am

I realize you're aren't (directly at least) blaming the DM's for her death. But some people do. 
 
Also, I'm not a fan of the OOC assumptions and expectations people have about exactly what type of monster must be in a certain place and at a certain time. The old "this type of Goblin isn't supposed to be here!" type thing. It's annoying and OOC. The wilderness is just that, a wilderness. Any place that isn't a civilized and regulated community can have any kind of monster in it (conceivably). It's true that the chances are extremely low of seeing a Bugbear in the Gurok flats, but it can happen. 
 
So assuming a Giant Spider wouldn't be in the um, Spider cave, is not always the best way to go. Sometimes certain tougher types of monsters are left in certain areas for whatever reason by a DM, whether to break up the monotony or as an after effect of some event. It's not very realistic for people to have a rigid OOC conception of exactly what they will or will not find. See the post I made on Death and Tactics. People should never travel anywhere alone. You never know what's going to be out there. 
 
So overall, seeing a Giant Spider that doesn't normally spawn in the Spider cave (I'll have to check on that) doesn't necessarily mean a DM spawned it on you. 
 
Edited: To add something I forgot and AG brought up as well. 
 
-Psi

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=psilax@thevast>Psilax</A> at: 1/27/04 5:36 pm

pcpaf · Post by **pcpaf** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:23 am

Psilax. 
 
I were in the Cave looking for the Drow that killed Loli. It don´t matter to me if she die from poison from a drow or Spider. It also don´t matter if you as a DM Droped the spider on her or didden´t remove it after a event. In my mind she still died becource of a DM. 
 
Ohh and forgetting to remove monsters after a Event. 
I know all the DMs tryes to remove the monsters after a Event. 
Going into the glades with a party of 4 lvl. 1-3 and then a orc Cleric shows up killing the whole group with hammer of the gods.... Not fun if there are no DM there to help you <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> 
 
Have fun

Psilax · Post by **Psilax** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:01 am

An Orc Cleric in the Glades? Very unlikely. One in a million chance in fact. 
 
A Giant Cave Spider inside a Spider Cave? Makes sense to me. 
 
-Psi

Raeberquark · Post by **Raeberquark** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:14 am

Díd you see that RAHJIN <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> PSILAX has the same spelling disorder..........Gaurd.........hi hi

Saxjamm · Post by **Saxjamm** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:15 pm

If I might pipe in a little bit, without overstepping my bounds, I think there is still plenty left to be explored in the Vast, based on just a little of my limited experience playing here. 
 
I think the main problem for characters, evil, good, or half-n-half is that they continuously do the same things, over and over and over. This isn't to suggest that you can avoid repetition... Zato is now at level 3 (finally), and part of the reason for it is because I had to go on a little hunting expedition now and then. However, at the same time, I got to level 3 because I went somewhere I don't usually go, and ended up being rewarded, not just in xp points, but in enjoyment overall. 
 
The main schtick I have with the Vast is that I hang out at this well, and I see all these high level characters that are practically shining light off their robes or something, and the basic interaction between characters is something like "Hey, how you doing?" "I'm doing good, how are YOU doing?" "Cool". And then we all group up and go to the same locations over and over. Zato is just as guilty of this as some of the others. 
 
Yesterday, though, I had one of the most remarkable RP experiences yet. A group, including Zato, Ruben, Milton Friday, and two newer characters, Indar and Fram, all grouped up to go on a berry hunting expedition. Basically, Milton Friday just wanted some berries, and at some point it would have been a rather uneventful tour of the South Gate woods, etc. Zato decided that we should go to the North Gate though, but he really meant South. As we headed out, Milton mentions that we were supposed to go to the North Gate. So we all kind of just agree. At this point, I notice that hardly anyone in the Vast goes out the North Gate. Sure, there was an event in a spider cave to get some dead elves out once, and I'm sure people hide out there once in a while, but for the most part, nadda activity, at least from my point of view. 
 
We travelled around, and decided to act like an actual group. None of us had really seen orcs before, but we knew they lived out there. No enemies in sight. We walked cautiously while complaining to Fram to slow down (IC of course). To make a long story short, we basically explored the underground caves, which were very expansive and beautiful looking I might add, for about 30 minutes or so. Nothing but walking ahead, looking at things, and RPing. No enemies. I was almost convinced that we would end up getting somewhere and having to just turn around with nothing to show for it. Anyway, we would even send Ruben ahead to scout and whistle for us, etc. Eventually though, after a long time of just nothing, we all hear a noise. We stop, and then a massive Orc Elite Warrior just came flying out after us. I almost got wrecked, but team work saved the day. 
 
Then then next long while was spent walking from pathway to pathway trying to escape, all the while some random orcs spawning in a cavern ahead of us. Some brilliant moves got put on. it was great. 
 
So, point being after this long post... if I might say... go somewhere else! Explore the places that aren't so obvious. People go to the ranger camp alot, but then there's nothing being done in the ranger camp (that I know of). People just show up, sit at a fire, and then head back. Or we go to River Vesper Landing. That's all great, but I think part of our problem, lately, is that we've all just been travelling back and forth on precisely the same travel route, mainly because we know how safe it is. 
 
Gotta go to the places normally unexplored... I guess.

RBRasAlGhul · Post by **RBRasAlGhul** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:37 pm

Hi, 
 
I agree with Saxjam: there are many exciting places waiting to be discovered and explored. 
Some days ago Frenzo Iose and "Evil" Natham <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> went North looking for a mist-shrouded island that Frenzo had glimpsed earlier in his travels. During the journey we found a pictoresque ledge over a lake and I took a nice screenshot; we look like two Doom Kings looming over the countryside <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> 
We found the island and its deserted fort (note to DM: there are some buildings with doors that open to nowhere; it would be nice to have at least empty interiors... I can imagine there a powerbase for Natham and his loyal henchmen). 
It was late afternoon and we paused to rest... when the sun set and three ghosts appeared!!! 
It was a tough fight but thanks to Natham's mastery over undead and Frenzo's stamina and strenght we won the day. 
 
Keep on exploring!!! 
 
Ras' <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/indifferent.gif ALT=":|">

Innuvindyl · Post by **Innuvindyl** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:19 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>FYI, the world began as a private endeavor in mid February, 2003; it did not run as a public server until mid April, 2003, and that was an open beta; and it did not leave beta and become official until June 29, 2003.<hr></blockquote> 
 
Impressive... I thought this was a die hard old server. 
 
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> Then I've almost been here from the beginning even without knowing ...

theultramoose · Post by **theultramoose** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:05 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Eventually though, after a long time of just nothing, we all hear a noise. We stop, and then a massive Orc Elite Warrior just came flying out after us. I almost got wrecked, but team work saved the day. 
 
Then then next long while was spent walking from pathway to pathway trying to escape, all the while some random orcs spawning in a cavern ahead of us. Some brilliant moves got put on. it was great. 
<hr></blockquote> 
 
That was indeed great <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
Milton actually heard something large wandering around in the darkness trying to be stealthy, and tried letting everyone know, but I think the rest of the group was around the corner and couldn't hear him. 
 
Also, I'm not convinced the orcs we ran into on the way out were entirely random... 
Thanks Psilax <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> 
 
Yeah, I agree, things get so much more interesting when you end up somewhere you're not familiar with and it's well worth grabbing a few people and heading off in a random direction once in a while to see what's there. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 
Karn could bend the law to support making tons of money and enforcing his will any way he pleased. 
<hr></blockquote> 
Some time ago, while looking through some of the feats I rarely use, I was seriously tempted to start a new character with the intention of having him join the guard and try to start up some kind of protection racket. 
The only reason I didn't is because I realised the sheer amount of time I'd have to invest in him, to get him to a high enough level to make it possible and to set everything up, I decided that I'd rather spend the time on Milton instead.

Saxjamm · Post by **Saxjamm** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:44 pm

In terms of evil, or should we say, less than just factions, I guess it's kind of hard to avoid just turning the server like any other servers out there that are set on "faction" mode. Once that happens, we'd lose the interconnectivity of the people currently playing on the server. The storylines would kind of get split up too much because people would either be concentrating on the "never ending battle between Natham's camp and the 12 other good guy factions that feel obliged to take him out... separately of course", or we'd just lose all focus on an evil entity altogether and the server would essentially lose its steam. 
 
When I first encountered the character Natham, the first thing I saw him in was his dark armor and all that jazz. Essentially, my character required no real intelligence or reasoning to kind of figure out that Natham was powerful and shouldn't really be spoken to or taunted. Natham just oozes the obvious evil thing. 
 
In terms of giving Natham some freedom as a character, perhaps allowing Natham to create that "base of operations" somewhere would be a good idea. 
 
I would not, at this time, support doing PK'ing on the server for the exact same reasons that are mentioned by other players, DM's, etc. However, perhaps, at some point, the DM's should allow the storyline to take in a few other "non-DM" players over to the enemy side. If I could be more concise... control who is allowed to be "hostile". 
 
I, for one, always thought that Natham is a cool bad guy character, but so long as he has to act like an "innocent" with everyone else, the more bland he kind of gets. Of course, just setting up a situation where we all simply "chase" Natham and kill him is equally boring and stupid. But perhaps allowing him to have alliances with the enemies of the forest, allowing him to control more of the undead, or something, would be more fun. So long as he doesn't travel all the way to the gates of Dragon Dale without taking caution, I think it would be okay to allow him to be the "hostile" character. He could play the character out without breaking it all down into a ridiculous "chase Natham to death" game. 
 
Maybe the character can never be a part of the drow, but letting him lead hordes of undead to attack the dale, or a certain number of players, based on DM suggestion, could be fun. I don't know what I'm talking about. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

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