Racial/social/cultural attitudes in the Forgotten Realms.

AtraAngelis · Post by **AtraAngelis** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:55 pm

*After Clicking the “Add Reply” box on the magical word box at the bar……Keldorn breathes easy as he places his new helmet on his head and walks out the Wayfarer with a slight smile on his face as the day seem a little brighter…*

PensivesWetness · Post by **PensivesWetness** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:08 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>oh, and i doubt if lug will ever get over the *inner demons*, but i'm also sure he'll never quit (stop) fighting them. 
just remember that lug is a part of the vast, as the history of the vast is part of lug. please, never forget that the vast is indeed a place where legends walk among the people........and lug is the only one of them that has orc in him. 
 
 
elion<hr></blockquote> 
 
yeah, i'd say Lugy has a lot of lore in the Vast... 
 
IC, he probably one of the only Orc-kin that wouldn't get shit from the gaurds, his potision and stature in the church of Moradin well known by now, thus he should be considered a asset by the gaurds and militia of DD. (and if the DMs haven't done that in some form or fashion, shame on them. deeds prove the soul, as well as legends) 
 
it's just like the gaurds should be watchful of back talk from Ginnia, since, IC, they know she dislikes them specifically for past slights and misconceptions, hence why she gives the LT the finger every chance she gets <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> or give Millia TONNES of crap because of her past and condundrums, if she visits (which is a rare event, considering where she is at currently) 
 
some things should be considered cannon by now as established as some PCs are in the region. Even the Elves from the ranger's camp should at least respect Lugdush as a priest of ethical service, even though standing tradition bars him from most of the services offered by the ranger's camp. 
 
why? because his RP, building the charactor, should have earned those perks (and if the DMs and players dont agree to that, that is a shame that darkens ALL of us, players and DMs alike...) as well as the baggage....

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of all who threaten, annoy, or spam it.

archimedes 13 · Post by **archimedes 13** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:37 pm

I'm glad misunderstandings have been cleared up, and people seem a bit happier....one last thing though, I wasn't under the impression that we were talking about any one person/character, but as the thread developed it seemed that we were. After re-reading it I and talking to a couple of people about this thread, it makes a bit more sense (i.e. why passions were rising so). So a couple of points - 
 
1) Except for where I might mention a player, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular with my comments. 
 
2) If the intention of a post is to refer to a particular character, it's best that that's stated, instead of implied. That way, those of us not in the know (like me) can figure out what's going on. It would probably reduce hard feelings too. 
 
This was off-topic, I realize...let me just say one thing. I thought Olamn's post was interesting, a quote from the PHB that made it sound like orc's could be just as easily good or evil. Doesn't make sense necessarily to me, but if that's the rule, then that's the rule.

in game - Matyas DeLac

PensivesWetness · Post by **PensivesWetness** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:27 pm

well, it's sorta involved into a Randy-does-Issy Orgy since, other than, oh what's Perado's GSID, it's a former metal-turned Crap-blues band name, Randy is the ONLY legit played Orc-kin, with any established RP backstory and history... 
 
not that i WANT that visual, TUVM... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> 
 
/me wanders of to... 
 
THRILLKILL! 
 
damn, were is he anyway? 
 

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of all who threaten, annoy, or spam it.

olamn · Post by **olamn** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:05 am

To clarify: 
 
An orc and a half-orc are two separate things, much like an elf and a half-elf are two separate things. 
 
An orc can be good, but the odds are stacked against it. 
 
A half-orc can be good, and the odds are even for it.

[insert significant quote here]

elion · Post by **elion** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:03 pm

another mistake i just discovered while IG. i allways thought that orckin meant kin to orcs, so half-bloods, but apperently i'm totally wrong and orckin are the real stuff. 
i think i've made a huge error then. i will try to change my own mindset and start using half-orcs to avoid any more stupid mistakes. 
 
elion. 
 
ps. it's right about orckin being real orcs?

TrooperMaxx · Post by **TrooperMaxx** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:33 pm

Elves see little difference between orcs and half-orcs, as do some others perhaps. 
 
As such, I often refer to them as orc-kin in emotes. This term does indeed refer to kin of orcs, which includes all full-blooded orcs as well as all half-blooded orcs... anyone with orc blood in them can be called orc-kin. And all are likely hated by the elves. 
 
Melreen is just wary of their brutal nature and wishes to see that she isn't stepped on - accidently or intentionally. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> Cause those guys are BIG! 
 
~Troop

archimedes 13 · Post by **archimedes 13** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:44 pm

One other note, in reference to Olamn's post - 
 
I went back and looked at some DM posts on the subject, trying to see if they made any comment about the "goodness" of orcs. Couldn't find any. What I did find, time and time again are comments about other character's reactions to orcs. It seems the focus might need to be on other characters. No one (or at least very few) should warm up to a half-orc quickly, even if he (or she) does appear to be good. Characters should remain wary for quite a long time.

in game - Matyas DeLac

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:44 am

What I did find, time and time again are comments about other character's reactions to orcs. It seems the focus might need to be on other characters. No one (or at least very few) should warm up to a half-orc quickly, even if he (or she) does appear to be good.

Yup, that's one of the key points I've been saying over and over. I'm glad someone got it.

Should I recount all the times I've (and just me personally, the other DMs would say the same) seen elves just walk up, sit down next to a half-orc, and buddy up with him? Or the times I've seen elf/half-orc best friend duos running around? And that's the elves, long-time racial enemies of all things orc. Ditto for dwarves and half-orcs all dwarves have offensive combat training versus orcs). From a player perspective, you might see it once in a while; from a DM perspective, it just gets old and tiresome.

Half-orcs are big and scary, and one side of their family is known for it's violent and evil acts. PCs may be more used to this than commoners, but it's so easy to overdo the instant tolerance thing. From the player's perspective, it's also so easy to slip into the big, dumb teddybear role right from the start, which only encourages the "he must be harmless" attitude. Use your imagination, folks, and imagine what a half-orc looks like. What would you think if one came walking down the street in your direction? How long would it take you to feel at ease around one?

If this were a tabletop campaign, the DM would be involved in the PC creation process right from the start, but here all kinds of concepts slip through into the game world, which is why we try to hash these things out in these forums - so that there is a record for those who wish to learn about the campaign, its style, and what is typically expected. Frankly, I think everyone should make a generic human fighter when first exploring a new rp-based NWN world, but that is fodder for another thread.

Does your human ranger have orc or half-orc as a favored enemy? From an IC perspective, why?

For the official record, none of the human guards will go beyond being wary of half-orcs into the realm of comfort, much less friendliness. All half-orcs should be played with this in mind. Just because a DM is not possessing a guard at any moment, does not mean the attitudes of the guards cease to exist. Don't play your half-orc in a way that would rile up the "irrelevant-because-they-are-just-NPCs" guards just to be annoying, different, to buck the system, or whatever, because sooner or later, a DM will be there, and just may decide to put your head on a pole outside the town gates. You know, just to spruce up the place.

Remember that the Vast is a frontier land that has been ravaged by orcs time and again over the centuries. Anyone with orc blood flowing in his veins will be met with suspicion by the locals.

Crowdosi · Post by **Crowdosi** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:48 am

Or in some cases vice-versa. I've recently created an half-orc just so I can explore what it means to be of that blood, actually so I can play an elf better. To me, the way I play it is, she is not comfortable in a town environment surrounded by men and elves. She has been kicked out of her own tribe for reasons I won't go into here, but she *knows* she will die if she goes back there. Therefore, she chose the lesser of two evils so to speak by coming close to Dale. Even half-orcs can hate half-orcs.

Ronnes · Post by **Ronnes** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:58 am

AG: 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>For the official record, none of the human guards will go beyond being wary of half-orcs into the realm of comfort, much less friendliness. All half-orcs should be played with this in mind. Just because a DM is not possessing a guard at any moment, does not mean the attitudes of the guards cease to exist. Don't play your half-orc in a way that would rile up the "irrelevant-because-they-are-just-NPCs" guards just to be annoying, different, to buck the system, or whatever, because sooner or later, a DM will be there, and just may decide to put your head on a pole outside the town gates. You know, just to spruce up the place.<hr></blockquote> 
 
 
 
Saucy likes to team up with a guard at the gates sometimes to "protect" the village from enemies. She considers it "work", and hopes to contribute to the safety of the Dale this way. 
 
She always greets and asks the guard if he would appreciate her efforts. *shrugs* Never an answer though (obviously), and Saucy will consider this as a "I don't care" kind of reaction. 
 
Saucy kept many 1st levels from running out of town and being slaughtered within minutes. Just by telling them they'd better team up with somebody else, because it is dangerous outside the town gates. Quite a few times it ended up in an entertaining session of RP. 
 
Now, if the DM's feel to take over a guard one day, chop Saucy's head off, and stick it on a pole at the gates: be my guest. I put a lot of effort in developing the character of dear silly Saucy, but if that is to be her final destination- so be it. 
 
Don't expect me to play a half orc again though- ever. Not on the Vast anyway. And I feel that is a shame, cause in my opinion characters like Saucy add color to the Vast. As do other half-orc characters, I am pretty sure of that. 
 
To make it perfectly clear: I as a player do not agree on the Vast half-orc treatment if this would be the case. To me it is definately more OOC then the whole "teddy-bear" comparison. But this is the Vast. It is your table. I, the player, will bow my head to it. (Which is less dramatic then having my head up on a stick. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> ) 
 
Ronnes

Ronnes · Post by **Ronnes** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:21 am

Oh- one more thing. 
 
AG: 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>If this were a tabletop campaign, the DM would be involved in the PC creation process right from the start, but here all kinds of concepts slip through into the game world, which is why we try to hash these things out in these forums - so that there is a record for those who wish to learn about the campaign, its style, and what is typically expected.<hr></blockquote> 
 
I have not played Saucy very regularly (that is why she only recently hit level 3) and her player Ronnes is not so much into lone gobbie bashing (and if he does he gets Saucy to the brink of death all too often- Ronnes never was much of a hack and slash gamer, and is rather clumsy at game mechanics). 
 
But about a year ago now we rebuilt Saucy (at level 1 no less) together, AG, remember? You even proposed to use Duergar for her slave-background (where I figured some evil Dwarves in a secluded underground smithy would suffice). You always knew about Saucy's denial of being of orc-blood (she simply never met other races during her emprisonment) and Gond being her Deity (the only deity she ever knew). 
 
Apologies if I took this quote a bit personal, and if this reply was not nescessary in Saucy's case. But I want to make clear the concept of Saucy never "slipped through". In fact I PM'd you about her to the brink of annoyance at the time. I filed my questions and your answers, if you are interested. 
 
Ronnes

archimedes 13 · Post by **archimedes 13** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:24 pm

I suppose this is in someway directed at you, since it is a response, but it's more to half-orc's in general. 
 
What makes your half-orc different from an unintelligent human barbarian? I think answering this question may help with roleplaying. 
 
To expand a bit, I notice elf fighters to be very different from human fighters. Happy-go-lucky halflings act different than happy-go-lucky humans or elves. Characters that are roleplayed have to be steeped in their race (and how they were raised) before they can be a real character. 
 
Now, back to half-orcs. My suspicion is that most half-orc fighters aren't roleplayed much differently than oafish human fighter/barbarians. I also find it curious that we have few (if any) of those dumb-ox fighters. I imagine the half-orcs take their place, which is fine, as long as they do that in an orcish way. No matter how good they are or strive to be they must contend with their orcish (and human) nature, just as elves must contend with their elvish nature. They simply can't leave the brutality behind. 
 
And it's this brutality that others must remember. The Dale is a fairly open society, that's why half-orcs are allowed in. But people should still be wary of them, just as they'd be wary of any "evil" race.

in game - Matyas DeLac

Ronnes · Post by **Ronnes** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:41 pm

I can understand perfectly why player-characters should be weary of half-orcs, that is not the issue as far as I am concerned. Prejudice can be fun (in a fantasy-environment anyway). 
 
But evil as a race? I refer to Olamn's post with the quite from the PHB. Technically half-orcs ore not an "evil" race. 
 
And Saucy: she may be naive (low wis) and bone-headed, but she is fairly intelligent (11). And she is not human. She is half-orc. 
 
Ronnes

archimedes 13 · Post by **archimedes 13** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:50 pm

Perhaps I'm not making myself very clear. 
 
Orcs are evil, that's documented. Everyone in the Dale believes that. Half-orcs (as according to the rules) are not necessarily evil. In some ways the Dale believes that too, because they are allowed inside the gates. But ignore the rules for a moment, and imagine you're a person encountering an orc that looks just a bit less orcish than most orcs. Sure, you don't attack him, but you do realize he is descended from an evil race, and therefore probably don't trust him very much. No matter how good this half-orc is, he still has to contend with his barbaric nature. 
 
Second point - I know Saucy is a half-orc. My question was, how would a half-orc be different if it were a naive, strong, human barbarian. My guess is there should be substantial differences, no? (Just the same as if Corvus was changed from and elf to a human. It would be a different character). It was bit of a rhetorical question, that I thought might help in pinning down exactly what these "orcish" traits are. My point is, it has to be something more than just being large and naive.

in game - Matyas DeLac

The Vast

Racial/social/cultural attitudes in the Forgotten Realms.

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