Racial/social/cultural attitudes in the Forgotten Realms.

elion · Post by **elion** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:30 pm

*bows* thank you for an answer, AG. 
 
i have spent some modules dm'ng in forgotten realms, years ago, but gave it up because it lacked consistency in those early days. i don't know how it has evolved since then. but i'm here to play...that's all. i have noticed some changes in the rules to make everything *easier* for everyone, but having just the old manual, very hard for me.

sarah petite.(EST+6) 
(plays pansy felloscobbert. also plays sarah corbeaux de lyon, glognar fenk, roden rift, the stranger twins, ragus and prospero brackenfields.... and some try-outs.)

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:39 pm

Ronnes:

Maybe you missed it, but this thread is for serious discussions within the topic. Being a smart-ass (here or in game in the DM channel) helps no one, and it wastes my time which means you're wasting effort that could be put into DMing, answering serious posts, or module construction, among other things.

Most of the checks in Dragon Dale are from the first month of the module's creation, and have never been updated due to an overly full to-do list, and limited time. They are based strictly on charisma. Either respond here constructively, or keep quiet. Resist next time. Any more off topic responses from you will result in edited or deleted posts; I suggest you call it a night where this thread is concerned.

Ronnes · Post by **Ronnes** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:31 pm

Excuse me? 
 
What do you mean, AG, calling me a "smart ass"? 
 
I have been truly engaged in this discussion. Honest, fair and trying to contribute to the community. 
 
And what on earth are you implying with me "smart-assing" the DM-channel? * amazement* 
 
"...call it a night where this thread is concerned."? Why? What have I done? Why this patronising smack about the ears? 
 
The post about the guards in the Dale might have been more something for the "Suggestions" section, but I felt it would ease the heated tension inhere. 
 
I suppose this post will be deleted, edited or whatever. That would NOT be fair treatment though, and it shows bad leadership, excuse me for saying so. Or do no excuse me for saying so. More fool you, Sir. 
 
Next time send me a PM. That would be far more constructive, and perhaps we can eradicate misunderstandings at an earlier stage. 
 
Sincerely; 
 
Ronnes

Dracharla · Post by **Dracharla** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:27 am

All of this talk on half orcs got me thinking. 
 
half orcs are not the only sort of folks who would or could get gawked at within civilized area's. 
 
Different races will elicit different reactions, and in general I don't think all folk look to kindly upon adventurers (as they tend to stir up trouble!) 
 
what I mean is, that half orcs aren't the only folk who would elicit a strong reaction from both npc's and pc's as well. 
 
Don't many tall folk see halflings as pickpockets? 
 
and I can only imagine how the townsfolk would gawk and stare at a tall elf, especially one with barely any clothes on, covered in tattoo's with teeth in her hair! or what if they had disfiguring scars on their face? 
 
or how about a dwarf with 3 day old meat stuck in his beard and looks to be suffering from gout? 
 
And we as players can perhaps work within these assumptions especially with npc's. Oftentimes for example when isen heads into draongdale, but especially in vesper, she will pull her cloak over herself and try to shroud her face behind her cloaks hood. Why? Because she doesn't like the attention that is drawn to her when in "civilized" lands. I imagine most would want to remain inconspicious when they get gawked at all the time. 
 
I think that sometimes we as players overlook the physical characteristics of other characters and focus soley on "who" they are and not on "what" or simply how they appear to us. 
 
Corvus I think is a great example (I hope you don't mind me using you cafall) in that he has many clearly visible scars upon his face that can easily be overlooked in roleplay by others. In real life though, how would you react if you saw a man who had a scar running over his eye that prevented him from fully opening or closing it?

~Dracharla, Bushwhacked Wild Elf 
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 
 
Hello my name is Isendyl and I will be your Meat Shield for the day. In case of emergency please cower! The exits are located directly behind me. Thank you for Flying Pwnge Airways and please come fly with us again!

TrooperMaxx · Post by **TrooperMaxx** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:57 am

Ronnes: 
 
I get the general sense that your attitude in playing, particularly Saucy, is a bit rebellious. Rebellious against the norm and against authority. 
 
You said it yourself "*snickers* Sorry about this. I just could not resist...", as if you knew you were doing something wrong or rebellious. 
 
If you really want to contribute to the community, don't rebel against it nor rebel against the norm and try to play a character way out there. 
 
I really don't like judging other players, but that is the feeling I get from you in general and your character Saucy. And I can see AG's perspective, though you were perhaps trying to soften the mood, it came off a bit like a smart-ass remark. I think the mood had already been calmed with AG's two serious posts just before yours. 
 
~Troop

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:18 am

or how about a dwarf with 3 day old meat stuck in his beard

I should hope not, dwarves take great pride in their beards, and in keeping them well groomed and styled even. Different braid patterns and ornaments may hold different meanings to dwarves.

I know when I play, I keep a closer eye on my pocket around strange halflings (even when playing a halfling sometimes)

Bernissus · Post by **Bernissus** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:34 pm

Off topic post edited out.

Bernissus (GMT+1) 
(Samia Jerias, Sven Longtooth)Edited by: <A HREF=http://p209.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=algernonsghost>Algernons Ghost</A> at: 10/1/05 1:04 pm

AtraAngelis · Post by **AtraAngelis** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:58 pm

Off topic post edited out.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://p209.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=algernonsghost>Algernons Ghost</A> at: 10/1/05 1:04 pm

Dracharla · Post by **Dracharla** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:26 pm

I personally think this topic in all its span from way back when to right now has to much good content past previous and future to close. that being said, I think perhaps as has been stated numerous times before we should collectively take a step back and a nice deep breath. The half orc thing for now I believe has been beaten int the ground. however this topic is/was/shouldn't be entirely about half orcs. 
 
it is about racial/social/cultural attiitudes in FR. 
 
I had tried to perhaps get us to change gears back on page 8. I would love to see what the community thinks in regards to the questions posed there.

~Dracharla, Bushwhacked Wild Elf 
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 
 
Hello my name is Isendyl and I will be your Meat Shield for the day. In case of emergency please cower! The exits are located directly behind me. Thank you for Flying Pwnge Airways and please come fly with us again!

RaynenArrows · Post by **RaynenArrows** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:45 pm

Following the the pull of Dracharla, I want to ask about elves, particularly Sun elves in general. I read in the Races of Fearun book that Sun elves have a particular severe prejudice toward humans. 
 
Does the same go for any other race of elf? 
 
As far as halflings or dwarves well....I have found that halflings as it where fit in well in any society, at least according to WotC. Dwarves...I dont know enough to comment on...other than isnt it normal for anamosity between elves and dwarves? (though I only heard as much, and found no proof yet to back up that thought)) 
 
 
Raynenarrows.....Aka Mace

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:07 pm

Based on what I read in 'Races of Faerun' and 'Lost Empires of Faerun,' the basis for any prejudice by the Sun Elves against humans is 'Netheril' (the actions of Netherese mages that caused the decline in magic, specifically High Magic, for all the races of Faerun & the keeping of Gnomes in slavery by that culture) and Myth Drannor (the Elven Coronal allowed humans and several other races to settle in Cormanthor near Myth Drannor), in my humble opinion. The Netherese mage (can't remember his name) who sought the power of Mystra ended up killing her and wrecking magic all over Faerun [example of human short sightedness with regards to power]. The influence of humans in Myth Drannor didn't endear them to the Sun Elves residing there. There's also the 'invasion' of the human kingdoms of Sembia, Cormyr and the Dale Lands into Cormanthor that many Sun Elves don't view as a pleasant event. And you could look at the history of humans taking over other Elven kingdoms where the Sun Elves didn't reside. 
 
Many Sun Elves are concerned with the nature of being Elven, so they could see a Human breeding with an Elf as diminishing the Elven race. Half-elves aren't Elven. They lack the connection to the Weave that all Elves (except Drow) are born to. 
 
Another thing to consider is that most Sun Elves reside on Evermeet and Evereska, which are two of the most closed Elven kingdoms on Faerun. The appearance of humans is rightfully rare in these places. Racism grows best with a lack of exposure to the light (truth), IMHO. The Sun Elves have kept themselves away from contact from humans throughout the Retreat. Now, some believe that there is a 'Return' occurring among the Elven peoples. Will this attitude change? 
 
Now, how does Faelar feel towards humans? For that you'll just have to depend on my roleplay, based upon his intelligence, wisdom, charisma and background. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
How would the other Elven races feel? Well, you'd have to look at their history with humans, the current amount of exposure they've had and with the specific humans to answer that one. Cafall, Dracharla, Trooper, Olamn what do you all think? 
 
goatte (faelar)

olamn · Post by **olamn** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:46 pm

I'd say you're spot on with the Sun Elves, Goatte. 
 
Moon Elves, though, are much more tolerant, the most tolerant, in fact, of all the races. This is not to say they will run up and hug a half-orc, but it is to say that a moon elf is fairly comfortable around other races, enough that they value and appreciate the insights of other races (even half-orcs), even if they may see things a bit differently. 
 
Moon elves are the "liberal minded" of the elvish race. 
 
Half-orcs have the most to fear from Moon-Elven racism, as moon-elves "hold particular contempt for orcs and gnolls." 
 
Still, an open mind and a light heart is the hallmark mindset of a moon elf, and a kind half-orc, that means well, might circumvent a great deal of the suspicion that a moon-elf would have toward him/her. Toward a half-orc that is crude and orc-like (one raised by his/her orcish parent), however, a moon-elf is likely to react in a negative way befitting that particular elves personality: avoidance, open hostility, piercing remarks, and/or obvious disdain of another sort. 
 
In races of Faerun, it is interesting to note it states that moon elves are often given the coolest receptions by OTHER (non-moon) ELVES, as their open-mindedness is viewed as utter foolishness by Wood and Sun Elves. 
 

[insert significant quote here]

elion · Post by **elion** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:39 am

*grins* good one, goatte. 
 
i've been doing a lot of reading the last few days. mostly about hin and elves. same here, didn't find reverences to dwarf/elf wars, but i did find a nice cultural piece. the retreat, as described by goatte, along with the *old wars* that brought disaster to faerun was hugely caused by human interference in the weave. most elves see that tendency towards powergaining and seeking hidden knowledge in many a human. (no wonder they made evereska a place where ONLY elves can come). 
but the dwarves look at humans with suspicion too, come to that. humans usurp all of their old strongholds and grow stronger every generation. and even with the *thunder-children-generation* the dwarves ar still a small folk in numbers. 
 
((sources: FR campaign settings and D&D races of the wild))

sarah petite.(EST+6) 
(plays pansy felloscobbert. also plays sarah corbeaux de lyon, glognar fenk, roden rift, the stranger twins, ragus and prospero brackenfields.... and some try-outs.)

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:51 pm

Olamn, makes a good point about Moon Elves being more tolerant, but that tolerance level would be adjusted by the origin of the character. A Moon Elf living in Waterdeep would likely be really tolerant. In Silverymoon, even more so, where they are valued by the population more than most other places. A Moon Elf from Cormanthor might remember wrongs done by the local humans and be more forgiving or more intolerant of further wrongs. A Moon Elf of Evermeet might pick up some of the prejudices of neighboring Sun Elves. Lots of chance for diversity within each population. I personally see it as a range of tolerance defined by the race, the region, and finally the character's family. With further definition as one goes from 'race' to 'family.' 
 
And tolerance among the Elven races is fascinating. Some remember the 'Crown Wars,' as caused by the Drow, while others remember the harm done by the Sun Elves. 'Lost Empires of Faerun' is a valuable book. That, 'Races of Faerun' and the FRCS are three that I would grab up if a hurrican was coming. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
Thank you, Elion. I appreciate the compliment. The 'Races of the Wild' is good for generalist approach to the Elven race, but 'Races of Faerun' is dense with information on all the races. Faelar was pretty much lifted out of there and enhanced by reading the 'Lost Mythal' series and the 'Evermeet' novels by Wizards of the Coast. 
 
goatte (faelar ammirynth of evermeet)

L3 · Post by L3 » Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:40 pm

I thought I'd try to contribute a little about the Wood Elf attitude. In "Races of Faerun" they are described as being among the more patient, and compassionate of the Elven subraces. Half-orcs are a problem, but once again, patience and compassion play into these interactions. I like to play this off Nespin by leaving him uncomfortable around half-orcs, and rather short with them on a social level at most times (often referring to a half orc as an "it"), but unwilling to leave the body of one lying out in the glens. (This is also partially in defernce to the feelings of a human friend of his though, and on the off chance that the human side is enough to counterbalance the orc) As to the Dwarven relations, I believe most elves feel that Dwarves are a bit more dour than they should be, which is not to be confused with dislike. Wood elves have a great respect for shield dwarves stemming from an alliance formed before Eaerlann fell with the dwarves of Ammarindar. Humans are of course a mixed bag. Most Nespin gets along with well, but there are some, like Mace, who Nespin likes well enough, but whom he feels are rather dull and unhappy sorts.

The Vast

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