Losing your Familiar

AmirahTernAren · Post by **AmirahTernAren** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:51 am

In addition to the question on the scrolls or the lack of them rather, which makes wizard even harder to play, I also have a question on what the mechanics are when you lose your familiar. 
When Chisella was level one, on losing her familiar, she lost 60 xp. Now Chisella is level 3 and she lost her famliar and this time 600 xp. This in addition to the 100 gold required for a new familiar makes them quite hard to play. 
Could someone explain me how the xp penalty works when you lose your familiar? 
Thank you 
Chisella *plucks a hair from one of her face-moles*

Yyrkroon · Post by **Yyrkroon** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:42 pm

From the HCR Manual: 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When a Familiar dies, the familiar's master will now lose 200xp x level of the owner. The owner will be given a chance to avoid half the penalty by making a successful Fortitude check. <hr></blockquote> 
 
<hr /> 
 
I have an additional related question though, I have at times had my familiar 'die' for no reason. 
 
In one instance, I accidently hit it with a sleep spell. I kept scouting without it, it did not take any damage there were no gobbos around, but the familiar died for no reason. I figured that it might have been a fluke with 'leaving' a sleeping familiar on a map. 
 
Later, however, after dishing out the 100 gp for a new one, I was fighting gobbos, and the cat ran ahead to engage while I stood back and fired away with arrows. The cat killed his goblins, I backed up to fire again at the one charging me, and the cat died again. No goblins attacking it, no damage taken, it still had 6 or 7 hps.

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:11 pm

I had a similar experience with my familiar. I had the faerie dragon and it attacked a goblin thug, while I hit it with arrows. The thug was killed, and the dragon was wounded, but it later died outright. Much like when a badger attacks while berserk and dies later from exhaustion. Could a mage's familiar be undergoing the same process as a badger for combat? 
 
If you left the familiar asleep, anything could have given it a 'coupe de grace.' 
 
I'm thankful that it was only 60 xp for losing my familiar. If we had to suffer the hit point loss, I would have died while losing my familiar. I think our familiars are not the Druid or Ranger's companions, in any way. We can possess them and use them for scouting. They give their master a bonus to a skill in many cases. The implementation of the Hard Core rules is lenient since death is rather final in the HCR set. 
 
goatte

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:29 pm

In hcr you cannot die because of the death of your familiar (even though it should be possible). 
 
HCR has modified your familiars to have only half the hp total that your magic-user posseses, not the total that shows on the familiar's character sheet. It has to track this total by checking your character's HP every module heartbeat (every 6 seconds). The delay in familiar death is due to the gap between checks - you could have to wait up to 6 seconds from the time of the fatal blow to discover your familiar was killed. Because of the confusion, and bugginess of this system, we are considering doing away with it. If we do, it will not affect the xp loss and 100 gold cost to resummon; those features will remain in place. 
 
Originally, familiars were never intended to be the combat creatures that they are in NWN - a competent combat critter was extremely rare - but having a toad as a familiar is only good for role-play, and Bioware was focusing on the single player aspects of NWN. So magic-users are lucky to be able to pick whatever creature they want as a constant companion/bodyguard/meatshield. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=algernonsghost>Algernons Ghost</A> at: 10/8/03 1:27 pm

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:13 pm

Algernon's Ghost, I did not know about the HCR mod of familiar hit points. There was no reference to that in the HCR Manual, unfortunately. I would not have let mine get anywhere near any threat. Oh, well, live and learn. *grins* 
 
Question: The 100 gold cost is only for resummoning after death? If I unsummon, enter a town, and resummon after leaving, then I won't have to pay the 100 gold? 
 
goatte

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 9:47 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Question: The 100 gold cost is only for resummoning after death? If I unsummon, enter a town, and resummon after leaving, then I won't have to pay the 100 gold?<hr></blockquote> 
 
That is correct, only after death. 
 
I have changed the familiar back to bioware default for HP purposes; it will be active next module build. Let me know if you experience any issues. Also, as stated, we will be retaining the xp loss of 200 points per character level on familiar death, as well as the 100gp resummoning cost.

Jeaze Mcleod · Post by **Jeaze Mcleod** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:25 pm

Yup it definately makes you think twice about sending a familiar to battle. Beter make more wise use of familiars I say and that includes recalling them when the odds are definately against you. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

AmirahTernAren · Post by **AmirahTernAren** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:53 am

Yes..My familiar has 10 hp, got hit by an acid arrow for 9 ...so, not much i could do. But that:s not really an issue. I just wanted that clarified. 
now it seems I have another question, cos I lost it again, but this time only lost 180 xp. how wass that computed (still level 3) 
And I still dont know what the DM thoughts are on scrolls availability (lvl 2 and +)

Silverwyrm · Post by **Silverwyrm** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:49 pm

Hey Amirah, its elderoth, im comin back...not sure as who though. 
 
As for the issue at hand, Eldy was/is a lvl 4 sorc with a lvl 5 panther. I say do away with the whole 1/2 the casters HP thing. 
 
Honestly, wizards/sorc have a hard enough time staying alive with there hp, and the familiars arn't that tough, low AC, or horrible combat ability. Exp. Shade (lvl5 panther) 22 hp, +6 hit, 16 ac. (might be slightly off on some #'s). 
 
Casters in my eyes, sould be powerfull and with current rest rules and perma-death rules they are with out question the lowest on the food chain...next to bards... Its hard to get good AC as a caster, and untill your lvl 7, you can't even come close to the damage done by a fighter. then theres the whole 1d4 hit point issue. Throw us a bone, i mean im happy with the challenge i face as elderoth, i've put 2 fighter types to there grave do to slickness, but if i was in the fighters shoe's elderoth would totaly be worm food.

thryllkill · Post by **thryllkill** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:28 am

Not to be argumentative, but I feel a counterpoint needs to be made. 
 
Casters are purposfully weak in the begining since they are so powerful at the later levels. As you've pointed out even lower level casters can, with skill, own the fighter types. Also since D&D and The Vast in particular are party style games it is important to have a balance. If casters were too strong, they wouldn't need the other types. 
 
As far as familiar loss goes, these are creatures that are a part of you, not just friends. Losing them should hurt, and should hurt bad. 
 
Just to let you know I am not slamming you, my sorceress is only Level one, and even in a party of 4 one day almost got owned by a goblin, so I feel ya. I just don't agree with you. :o)

DarkRitual · Post by **DarkRitual** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:43 pm

I agree with thryllkill. 
 
From a RP perspective, the bond between a Mage and his Familiar is a deep one, unlike a Ranger/Druid/Cleric and the Animal companion they summon at a whim. 
 
It's a strong magical link, and as thryllkill said, the Familiar is 'part of you.' They really shouldn't be used in combat at all. 
 
And once Fireballs and Stoneskins and whatnot roll around, the Mage becomes a ridiculously dangerous force.

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I say do away with the whole 1/2 the casters HP thing.<hr></blockquote> 
 
Already did that since it was way too confusing, I quote myself: 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have changed the familiar back to bioware default for HP purposes; it will be active next module build. Let me know if you experience any issues. Also, as stated, we will be retaining the xp loss of 200 points per character level on familiar death, as well as the 100gp resummoning cost.<hr></blockquote> 
 
I refer you to the responses of thryllkill, and DarkRitual as well. Mages are supposed to be weak at first, it is a very limited and specialized class. They also wield tremendous power once they begin casting 3rd level spells, and it only gets better from there. 
 
 
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>the familiars arn't that tough<hr></blockquote> 
 
The familiars are still ridiculously tough compared to what they are supposed to be in PnP (frogs, rats, bats, etc.). As it is now, anyone can just summon up fearie and pseudo dragons (how realistic is that?) - I can't remember the last time I saw someone choose the bat. I see wizards and sorcerers playing solo all the time out there, just letting their familiar do all the work for them. If they get to badly wounded, it is best to unsummon them. 
 

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:18 pm

Backing up thryllkill and darkritual, I agree about the familiar being a part of the wizard or sorcerer. I lost my character's familiar out of ignorance of the hard core rules regarding familiars. Now my character is paying the price for that. 100 gold to summon another familiar is nothing to sneeze at for a first level character. Once I summon another familiar, I plan to roleplay the process out. After that, I will be sure to keep my familiar under control and make proper use of its abilities. If I need something to bear the brunt of a fight, that's what fighters are for. You can always find another one if you look. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> 
 
goatte

Post by **Algernon's Ghost** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:37 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>And I still dont know what the DM thoughts are on scrolls availability (lvl 2 and +)<hr></blockquote> 
 
Certain types of creatures will have a better chance of dropping better scrolls (think spell casting enemies, paritcularly wizard classes). 
 
I may also be willing to RP a scenario in which one character of sufficient level to scribe scrolls does so in order to teach another wizard a new spell. Before you all flood me with requests, I first will have to research this some more.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. 
-Benjamin Franklin

Silverwyrm · Post by **Silverwyrm** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:18 pm

Ahaha..ha...sorry *clears throat* 
 
Ok i think you miss understood...wizards/sorcs sould lose exp. and have to pay for components to re-summon. Yeah casters get more powerfull at later levels...but realy, how long are you going to survive with your hit points, Especialy if your familiar only had 1/2 of them.(i know they don't now). That and exp is slow as snails on the vast...don't get me wrong, i like it that way.. 
 
You can't always trust another player to gaurd you...and any opponent who goes before you with a ranged weapon is ALWAYS a threat. Elderoth fears goblin archers and he's level 4. Nym (1st character, old cleric) wondered if he could take 5 at once...and he's lvl 3. Balance wise, familiars bring required support. 
 
Things are good they way they are now, im happy and all other casters probably are too

The Vast

Losing your Familiar

Losing your Familiar

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