The Vast

lately I've come to wonder if there is indeed, any need or utility in placing skill points in a variety of the skills that we simply have no mechanical use for. To preface the topic though, I will announce that I already do place skill points in these skills, but am now asking, both community and DM's, if that is indeed necessary/worthwhile.<br>
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On that other point, I guess this is just my little futile mini-rant on why I hate NWN for certain things (*cough* discipline), and just wondered what everyone's thoughts were on the subject.<br>
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The skills that I'm speaking of specifically are:<br>
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Bluff<br>
Persuade<br>
Intimidate<br>
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There could be others on the list, but I'm certainly not able to recall it right now. Appraise doesn't count; we are officially using it as a "Speak Language" system, and because virtually no one except the "social" classes have it as a class skill, it is both costly and rarely utilized by characters (though certainly not abandoned). <br>
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The short and skinnny: What's the point? Why bother? I'm not saying I should be rewarded for putting points in these skills, but their utility in this roleplaying environment seems... rather null. It's silly to do PvP skill checks of this sort... PC's are PC's, not monsters, and hence shouldn't be subjugated to the social laws of better dice. It would be silly for me to walk up to a new hin character, roll an intimidate check, and then just prepare to meander about all day declaring my successful scare tactics. <br>
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Persuasion. Either my character is a persuasive speaker or he isn't. Bluff; either my character is crafty or he isn't. <br>
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I know that I'm starting to blur the lines between functional roleplaying and actual, real life, human ability (I'm not the most persuasive writer, and if I wanted to play a character as such, I'd admit that I wouldn't really be fooling anyone). But I'm curious as to whether points in this area are worth investing. <br>
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And that leads me to my mini-rant. Discipline. Goodness gracious, talk about a skill that just breaks everything else in this game. Want to avoid the dreaded knockdown/disarm/whatever else? Better have discpline. Or you'll drop to the ground for a quick death. But in the process of putting points there, I'm losing skill points for everything else. Just had to vent that fact. I hate it. It's the skill to hate. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And that leads me to my mini-rant. Discipline. Goodness gracious, talk about a skill that just breaks everything else in this game. Want to avoid the dreaded knockdown/disarm/whatever else? Better have discpline. Or you'll drop to the ground for a quick death. But in the process of putting points there, I'm losing skill points for everything else. Just had to vent that fact. I hate it. It's the skill to hate.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Front-line fighters will have it, others won't so much. The question is, how much of a front-line fighter is your PC? In a party, everything has a way of evening out.

<p><!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The ends don't justify the means. The means shape the ends; you become what you do.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security."<br>
-Benjamin Franklin</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--></p><i></i>

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Front-line fighters will have it, others won't so much. The question is, how much of a front-line fighter is your PC? In a party, everything has a way of evening out.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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Monks aren't front-liners, period. It's the jack-of-all-trades class, which is unfortunately the master of nothing class in D&D, which usually translates to "stellar results in everything -- if our opponent is less powerful." <br>
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So, I guess I just kind of put my own point down because I invest too much into discipline, as technically Zato shouldn't be trying to play the front-line. Then again, he can't really afford to be dropped to his knees either. *shrug*

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<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Hello my name is Zato and I will be your Meat Shield for the day. In case of emergency please cower! The exits are located directly behind me. Thank you for Flying Pwnge Airways and please come fly with us again!</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

Discipline could also be viewed somewhat from the monk's perspective as natural to the class. It takes a great deal of focus, order, and discipline to be a monk.

<p><!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The ends don't justify the means. The means shape the ends; you become what you do.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security."<br>
-Benjamin Franklin</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--></p><i></i>

True. But I also invested points in concentration for that purpose of "discipline" as well, even though monks can't cast a single spell, and concentration is designed primarily for that purpose. <br>
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At least I can counter Taunt. Man, wish that was a monk's class skill. Taunt the Emperor, Zato. Taunt the Emperor.

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<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Hello my name is Zato and I will be your Meat Shield for the day. In case of emergency please cower! The exits are located directly behind me. Thank you for Flying Pwnge Airways and please come fly with us again!</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

Interesting points, Saxjamm. Especially about 'taunt,' which I've never seen in use. Heck, I can't recall a bard using their song to increase the abilities of their companions. When I played a bard through the single player campaign, I used it constantly to aid my henchmen.<br>
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Also, I think intimidation won't come through in a world where PvP doesn't occur. Intimidation requires the fear of a follow through on a threat, imho.<br>
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goatte (karn & faelar)

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[trailing back to the three social skills]<br>
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While I've never been a fan of making opposed skill rolls with these skills, primarily because I don't think they should take control and secondarily because there is no such thing as an opposing skill in nwn (the equivalent of the Sense Motive skill in PnP), I do think they have their uses. I have seen barbarians put a hold on people by intimidating them, and a thief slip out of a tight spot after a failed pick pocket attempt using persuade. However, the skills doesn't do it alone, you have to back it up with smart roleplay.<br>
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What I see the skills can do, is to give your "opponent" a measure of how well it goes through. We are talking 'minor' changes here. For instance, if the person in question has given a rather plausible reason for the theft ("I stumbled over that rock, and tried to grabble something to get a hold, I really didn't mean it to be your gold pouch, sir."). The character offended, may be on the scale ready to tip either way. The thief makes a fair persuade/bluff roll, which finally makes the offended tip out and shrug it off ("Ah... hm... be more careful next time, then.").<br>
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I think the cardinal point here, is 'minor' changes in behavior, and certainly not something that goes straight against the offended. Some people are just better with words than others, and I think the skills can 'even' the ground a little, giving those who aren't exactly wordsmyth a chance to play such a character. Afterall, it's roleplay. If we could 'only' play characters that was like ourselves, it wouldn't quite be...<br>
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-goab

<p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Riddle me this, Riddle me that" ?</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

My Paladin Rogar ap Culvexen has taunt and has placed some points into it. I quickly got disapointed with it though when I realized that you have to be in Melee range to use the skill and it requires a full round action to implement. In most party settings he's been in, it's either been a complete waste (goblins) or the target has died before he even completes the action (half-orc bandits). I think the skill would rock against a single tough opponent (the hunter of men perhaps or a giant, perhaps even an enemy spell caster-the bandit Sorc or priest). I need to experiment more with it before I can give it a definative thumbs-up or down, but it doesn't look good at this point due to the range requirement. <br>
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The animation also looks pretty silly I think.

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Taunt can be quite devistating in combat but you are right it is more effective against powerful singular opponents. I remember a long while back a fighter who used it greatly to their advantage against the more powerful orcs and bandit folk. <br>
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more to say (as usual <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> ) just need more time to sus out my thoughts!

<p>~Dracharla, Bushwhacked Wild Elf<br>
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<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Hello my name is Isendyl and I will be your Meat Shield for the day. In case of emergency please cower! The exits are located directly behind me. Thank you for Flying Pwnge Airways and please come fly with us again! </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

Another thing to consider in this discussion: I think it makes sense to play those "social skills" like ability scores. You might want to put the points in if you're going to play a glib-tongued swashbuckler and RP it that way, the way you'd RP a low INT half orc or scarred, ugly low CHA guy. <br>
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The same principal of "fairness" in ability scores, I think, applies here. You don't play a beautiful, smart, sweet talking fighter chick when all your ability points are in STR and CON. In the same way, a "witty, charming" bard character might be played as skilled in conversation with bluffing and persuasion, but if you're not putting any points in those skills then you're giving yourself more "skills" than would truly be allowed under the system. So, you'd get to pump points into game-functional skills tumble and discipline and UMD and Hide and MS and perform--and still get to play a sweet talker, too. <br>
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Of cours, this isn't a major issue, and won't really unbalance the play on the vast either way, but there is a small element of RP fairness involved here. My two cents.

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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I can't recall a bard using their song to increase the abilities of their companions.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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more oftren then not, people FORGET to use it... i know i do with Milllia... on the 'other' server (hense why you never see her in DD<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> )<br>
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basically that's it, and unless you have good skill points in perform, Bard Song isn't affective as a form of buffing and rooting for the home team...<br>
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Teamsters......<br>
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damn, i really know when to shove my Nike's in my mouth... <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

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