The Vast

Quoted from the Player's Handbook (v3.5):
"Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."

You will note that physical attractiveness is mentioned last. This is because it is the least important factor regarding charisma. A character with a high charisma may in fact only be average in the "looks department". Think of some of the world's greatest leaders (whether they lead for good or evil); these are not always the most beautiful people by any means, but they are certainly charismatic. I am also sure we all know someone who is very physically attractive, but who is unpleasant to be near because of their personality.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am also sure we all know someone who is very physically attractive, but who is unpleasant to be near because of their personality.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
i.e. Satultrix, or so I hope anyway... least that's how I hope I play her most of the time :-P<br>
<br>
Good point AG!<br>
<br>
~Trooper_Max~

<p></p><i></i>

Karn: "Bah, she still looks like a Gnome."<br>
<br>
Getting back to the main topic, I can see that I haven't been playing Karn right. I guess I'll either have to retire Karn or make him step to the back of the group. At the very least, I think I should redo Karn, so that I can adjust the description you see when you examine him. Maybe I'll play up some obsessive qualities more? Goblins and Gold. Hmm.<br>
<br>
I think I've gotten my Sun Elf's charisma correct, but I gave a lot of thought to that before creating him. Just ask Elaith, Elrith, Innuvindyl and Averas what they think of Faelar. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
Also, our reactions to Paladins should be more positive, I think. Paladins with a decent charisma should be the leaders on quests. To me, that's the main talent a Paladin has. They're out front leading the fight against evil, motivating folks to follow and fight the good fight. A Paladin with a nerfed charisma is a dangerous, obsessed fanatic, who would be feared by the population. Think of the Spanish Inquisition that another player mentioned in another thread.<br>
<br>
goatte

<p></p><i></i>

Quote AG<br>
<br>
You will note that physical attractiveness is mentioned last. This is because it is the least important factor regarding charisma. A character with a high charisma may in fact only be average in the "looks department". Think of some of the world's greatest leaders (whether they lead for good or evil); these are not always the most beautiful people by any means, but they are certainly charismatic. I am also sure we all know someone who is very physically attractive, but who is unpleasant to be near because of their personality.<br>
<br>
Well AG am I also correct in then thinking it could be just the opposite as well? A person can be very attractive yet have an average personality, i.e. being hurt or left to his or her own survival making him or her not the biggest social butterfly. Right?<br>
<br>
<br>
Adalia13<br>
******<br>
Jayde<br>


<p></p><i></i>

Not sure, but wasn't there a chart for charisma in one of the editions of AD&D? I don't remember where I saw it, maybe Dragon magazine did it. <br>
*goes off to research*

<p>Maximus Thane<br>
_Known guard of the South Gate Road<br>
<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>

Well AG am I also correct in then thinking it could be just the opposite as well?

Sure a PC could.

The jist of this thread though, is that just because a PC has a high charisma, it does not necessarily mean they are drop dead physically attractive. When playing charisma, physical appearance should be the last of the various concerns.

Look at half-orcs and dwarves, they each get a -2 penalty to charisma upon creation. This in part is due to their physical appearance, and partly due to their typical lack of social graces. When you make a character of one of these races, you have the choice to overcome the inherent disadvantage in charisma by allocating more points in that ability.

Let's say you do this; your dwarf, or half-orc will still never be attractive to others than her own kind (even if she has a 16 in charisma), but she will have overcome her social shortcomings enough that she is not a social miscreant, and can possibly fit in just fine (depending on the score and the races with which she is attempting to interact). Among her own kind, she would be a confident leader and well respected.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well AG am I also correct in then thinking it could be just the opposite as well? A person can be very attractive yet have an average personality, i.e. being hurt or left to his or her own survival making him or her not the biggest social butterfly. Right?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
I'm not AG, but if you see Valens/Falcon in-game, he's an example of what you speak.

<p></p><i></i>

I've been 'dying' to post on this topic. [smiles] I'm glad 'someone' finally brought it up.<br>
<br>
I've always found the idea of 'physical attractiveness' being tied to CHA to be dubious at best. [admits] Aside from the impracticality of a character (most notably sorcerers, paladins and the like suddenly becoming prettier at certian intervals), I can't really see why 'physical' attractiveness should be tied into the Charisma stat at all. <br>
<br>
I would rather leave such 'concrete' qualities up to the players descriptive abilities. [smiles]<br>
<br>
Now, charisma defined as personality, outgoingness, force of being...the impression a person makes whether for ill or good, I can't completely see as being a function of charisma. As such, I rarely if ever associate high charisma as good looks. <br>
<br>
Personality is 'mutable', in my opinion. You may have a gruff, quiet fighter that doesn't speak much and says less. But when it 'really' comes to it, that CHA stat of 14 shows through. She may be rude, she may not be someone you'd want to talk to...but when it really comes down to it, you 'trust' that person, you feel..safe...you know they can lead...it's obvious. [smiles]<br>
<br>
This all takes into account if a person is playing it that way, and understands the function of charisma. The character I most often play, I don't play here. She's a wizardess from Waterdeep. She has a charisma of 10. She's a little shy, polite, 'definitely' not a leader she follows another, and trusts him. She often doesn't know when to keep quiet. If given the oppertunity she will talk on and on, and on about magical theories, her time at one of the magery colleges in Waterdeep..and to put it simply put most people not interested in magery into a deep coma. [laughs]<br>
<br>
Her personality is average, she's nice and helpful, but definitely not a leader or someone that's inherently magnetic personality wise. She's more then content to follow, and offer advice, but that's about it.<br>
<br>
-- Rolock (Sena Treebottom Halfling Wizardess)

<p></p><i></i>

My recollection is a little fuzzy on the matter; however, I believe 1st Ed. AD&D had a <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>comeliness</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> attribute. <br>
<br>
I suppose it was their attempt at drawing a more palpable line between ones physical appearance and the other more, abstract, aspects of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>charisma</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->.<br>
<br>
Physical form and figure is an undeniable component of any individuals charisma, however I do feel that self-confidence is one of the most, if not the utmost, considerable of facets.<br>
<br>
- CS esq.

<p></p><i></i>

Quite a few RP games split Presence/Charisma from physical beauty (in the form of an Appearance/Comeliness attribute)<br>
<br>
*pulls out a very dusty copy of the Unearthed Arcana* Here's where they tried to do it in D&D.<br>
<br>
Defining a character within 7 boxes (6 attributes & alignment) is always going to be difficult, and at the end of the day, only a DM can see whether we are playing within those guidelines. <br>
<br>
The use of the dice bag can come in handy here, as a low charisma will have an effect on charisma based skills. I've asked for Persuade rolls from players who are trying to get information across to either Tolwyn or Jay. However it can add that element of randomness that some poeple may not like.<br>
<br>
-H

<p></p><i></i>

My recollection is a little fuzzy on the matter; however, I believe 1st Ed. AD&D had a comeliness attribute.

Yes, they added Comeliness as a seventh ability, but it was short lived. Comeliness had an effect on the initial reactions of strangers when first meeting.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Also, our reactions to Paladins should be more positive, I think. Paladins with a decent charisma should be the leaders on quests. To me, that's the main talent a Paladin has.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
Well Karn there are 2 problems with that.<br>
<br>
1. People with certain alignments and charismas wouldn't really react to a paladin in a positive manner. I.E. Nuetral good CHA 9<br>
<br>
2. If the person behind the character isn't anything like what they are playing, it is kind of hard to portray such leadership.<br>
<br>
Example: Trent is NOT liked by many. (i found that out much to my dispair) even though his CHA is 14 he is still looked upon as a fanatic. But due to personal issues in his storyline, i am not going to change his fanatisism. Also, the opinionated masses of the characters on this server are NOT going to listen to anything he says due to the fact of the way thier character personality is made up. I, for one, am not like Trent. certain things yes, but for the most part it is a fair bit of acting on my part. that said, just imagine all of the other players who are doing the same thing. I am trying to make Trent more of a leader, but frustration on my part doesn't translate good into Trent's personality. and since i am trying to BE trent while i play........you get the idea. My other characters have more leeway in the matter though. Let me know if i am way off base with this post, because i am still learning alot about role play from all of you.<br>
<br>
Just my two cents.<br>
Rah

<p></p><i></i>

Well, Rahjin, ooc, I enjoy Trent's persona. He's the best played paladin on the server. *shrug* When Trent falters, I allow human nature to explain that, and he's always quick to apologize to those he wrongs or offends, which is correctly played. As far as the leadership goes, I can't say. Often, I've viewed paladins as knights-errant, on a constant pilgrimage to right wrongs and punish evil *huzzah!* Then again, I also see them as standing tall in a community, helping those who need it and being a bastion of hope. The curse of charisma, I guess, makes paladins born to be leaders, though how you lead is up to you. Strength of personality, not vocality. Don't worry so much about leading with words; actions can speak volumes. Also, I see many "young" players consistently looking to Trent for guidance, so that should be a testament to his influence. *shrug*<br>
<br>
In game, though, Valens is indifferent toward him, heh. Valens is your neutral good, not high charisma. He doesn't -dislike- Trent, persay, but sometimes he gets annoyed with him...two healing kits and a few potions, heh <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> . In any case, I think you should play him as you have been, and if you can become a more vocal leader, then great, go for it, but cut yourself a little more slack.

<p></p><i></i>

well i appreciate those kind words. I try to play Trent the way i view paladins should be, though he falters a bit sometimes. (he is not pure paladin, so to keep his personality consistant i make him get angered every once in a while, and maybe even annoyed.) I like the way you play Valens, as well as how Karn is played. Unfortunately it's too late for Karn to become Rarin. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rollin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> And any positives coming from my role play, comes from watching those i mentioned and many more i have come in contact with on this server. personally, i think that the whole Charisma thing should only be used to determine looks and abilities for Rogues, Sorcs, Clerics and Paladins. Because like i said, being a good leader based on Charisma doesn't mean that a player can pull that off.<br>
<br>
Two more cents.<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
Rah

<p></p><i></i>

Rahjin, IMHO, you do a good job as a paladin. It's a hard job playing the paladin. Also, running a meeting, like we had for the war council can be insanely difficult. I've stepped up and done it in real life, when I got fed up with a lack of results. I picture leading a meeting, like white water rafting. You keep on top of it the whole ride and try to avoid getting hung up on rocks. <br>
<br>
Trent also is willing to sacrifice himself for his beliefs. Definitely a paladin prerequisite. One thing, though. I don't see him as willing to sacrifice others for those beliefs. Sometimes you have to do that in war. And the Dale is definitely at war with all the monsters, humanoids and Drow in the area.<br>
<br>
I initially made the comment about Paladins and charisma, because I wondered about all the negativity, if not hostility, I saw directed at paladins. But then I thought about soldiers, policemen and firemen and how a lot of folks treat them, until they need their help. I now see Trent as a soldier in a holy war. <br>
<br>
Finally, Karn, I think, kind of fell into the leadership position. I wanted to get together in a larger group and try hitting some of the difficult areas with a better chance of survival, so I just started posting scouts and hoped that folk started showing up.<br>
<br>
goatte (karn)

<p></p><i></i>