Encouraging the more difficult classes

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:15 pm

I was thinking about the extreme shortage of wizards and sorcerers and bards on the server. I've run a couple of low-level scouts and not really seen any that I could remember. 
 
I've even tried to play a wizard, myself. I have a first level character who is a specialist wizard. I've found that even trying to hunt deer for meat is a life threatening proposition. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":"> I've lost his familiar, and I'm having a difficult earning gold to summon another one. Right now, my wizard is brooding in his room at the Wayfarer. I'm sure that many folks who have tried to play a wizard have gone through this, too. 
 
I know that with the dearth of magic items, we will need those able to cast arcane magic once we attack more difficult enemies. 
 
My question is: What can we do to support and encourage the playing of these difficult classes? 
 
goatte (karn)

thryllkill · Post by **thryllkill** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:27 pm

My main character is a sorceress, and the fear of the outside world is part of how I roleplay her. My first sorceress died to a goblin slinger, so my present one is much more cautious. Maybe after a few levels she'll be a force to be reckoned with, but for now... fear her whining.

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:38 pm

Exactly, Thryllkill. These classes are very difficult to advance through simple combat. I believe that RPing holds the key to gaining experience for the first few levels. What would a low-level wizard/sorcerer/bard do to gain experience, and hopefully gold, without exposing themselves to imminent death when they're most vulnerable? Spells for hire? Music performances? Application of lore-skills, if available? What kind of environment can we encourage for them to roleplay? 
 
Shoot out some ideas here, folks. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
goatte

DarkRitual · Post by **DarkRitual** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:58 pm

Well, the way I see it, getting to level 2 is important first and formost. It really does extend the lifespan of a character, and by level 3, hunting alone should be manageable. 
 
For these weaker classes to actually get to that level though, I think they need to pretty much always hunt with someone who is either level 2, or another level 1 character who is more able to take care of themselves out there, such as Fighters and such. The road to level 2 and 3 will be a rough one, but in the end, the power of the casters in later levels balances it all out. 
 
Getting RP experience for doing things that are true to their class is a good idea, but is a hard one to actually regulate and to achieve consistently. 
 
-DarkRitual (Zagreus)

Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub188.ezboard.com/bthevast.showUserPublicProfile?gid=darkritual@thevast>DarkRitual</A> at: 10/30/03 5:58 pm

LiaAmakiir · Post by **LiaAmakiir** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:03 pm

Well, in the case of music performances, bards could use the aptly named 'Bard's Park' at the Landing to perform in front of an audience. I think it would be interesting to see that happening, and it would be a good chance for some light-hearted RP (Lets see those bards impress us ^_^ ). 
In the case of wizards, would it perhaps be possible for them to learn more through studying with a more experienced wizard? That again would throw up some good RP opportunities. Sorcerors, I'm not entirely sure of, seeing as they don't learn magic - they direct it through their own force of will. If I think of some other ideas, I'll post them up. 
 
~Elrith

Yyrkroon · Post by **Yyrkroon** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:32 pm

Magic users require more caution than Fighters and Clerics, but making L2 is not that difficult, really. 
 
Only hunt alone in the Glade during the day, never engage in melee combat, and never ever go anywhere where a slinger *might* be. Learn to run, count 8, fire an arrow/sling over your shoulder, and run again. Oh, and never use your familiar. 
 
The DR familiars should be tanks at the lower levels, but slingers and slashers seem to rip right through any DR they have. 
 
In my opinion, they really hurt at L3 and L4. At L1/2 you can still gain decent xp from the lower goblins, which you can hunt relatively safely. Your BAB is not much worse than anyone else's, so you aren't total dead weight for a party, and sleep is a pretty nice spell. 
 
At L3/L4, though, things get worse. You need to hunt the more powerful goblins and other critters to advance, but still don't have many hit points, powerful spells, or spell slots. BAB starts lagging, sleep is no longer very effective, and no other offensive spell is yet ready to take its place, AC is bad, decent scrolls are very rare, etc... When hunting in a party, you cannot help but feel like the chump who brings domestic beer to a party. 
 
I think L3 spells will start things swinging in ther other direction again, especially if a library or some way of swapping spells ever comes to the Vast. 
 
The ability to scribe one's own scrolls or craft wands would really help level the playing field for the casters. 
 
A point I've repeatedly tried to hammer home is that HCR, in general, greatly weakens magic-users in comparison to stock NWN. Many of the bonuses MUs picked up in the conversion from PnP to NWN were due to the abilities lost in that same conversion and because NWN is real time, PnP is not. HCR does an awesome job of ripping away every benefit the mages picked up, but it does absolutely nothing to restore anything they lost.

goatte · Post by **goatte** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:58 pm

Yyrkroon, thanks for taking the time to type up a critique of the HCR system, but I was hoping more for ideas that will present Arcane magic users with opportunities to use their abilities. Elrith's idea to have bardic contests was the best thing I've heard so far. Let's throw ideas like that out. Things that we can do ourselves as players, without digging into the NWN engine. I didn't want us to duplicate posts from the 'Suggestion' forum. Thanks. 
 
goatte

imanujakku · Post by **imanujakku** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:50 am

slingers still currently cut right through DR thanks to BW bug where -1 enhancements and attack penalties bust through +1 DR. stupid BW. AG already fixed the grunts and thugs. the archers and warriors can hurt you because they can easily with a critical do more than 5 dmg. 
 
there are several wizards, sorcerers etc who have made it to 4 - averas, elderoth, and grendel come to mind and everyone favorite gnomish abomination Ashby just made 5 so it is possible. 
 
here are some OOC survival tips : 
 
make sure your constitution is at least 14 or higher .. you need to be able to survive more than one slinger bullet. 
 
take the toughness feat for another HP per level. 
 
get a crossbow - a missile weapon that can take out a grunt or thug or slinger in one hit is key to surviving lower levels on the Vast. the sling will not cut it. 
 
take the point blank shot feat - this feat is one of the best for non melee types. 
 
make sure mage armor is one of your first level spells. 
 
magic missile may seem great but its really not until your are strong enough for more than one missile. 
 
take color spray. color spray is one of the best first level spells with sleep coming in a second. sleep is less useful later while color sprays usefulness extends well beyond goblins try and it out and be amazed as you coup de grace huge mobs of goblins with ease. 
 
unless you like losing xp do not use your familiar in combat unless it has DR or is the psuedodragon. i know it is tempting to tank the sucker and send him off to battle the goblin hordes while you sit back with your crossbow but eventually a lucky critical or slinger will kill it and you will lose xp. at later levels i would not even use the familiar for anything but RP purposes. 
 
party up - you will level slower but you will live. 
 
offer your services to fighters and comabt classes. i can't think of any fighter who would not want mage armor when going of to battle the goblin hordes or endure elements to nix the damage from those sound bursts that goblin shamans seem fond of. 
 
IC idea : 
 
A wizards/sorcerers guild might be fun. 
 
A wizard/sorcerer guard position. 
 
A way for wizard/sorcerers to duel. 
 
Some way for wizards/sorcerers to put their lore and spellcraft skills to use. 
 
Let wizards and sorcerers submit custom text that could be used in the tome shop in Vesper . .actually better yet open that up for any class to submit like Card's guide to the Vast. i'd much rather buy something like that in the tome shop than the BW default books. 
 
imanu

thryllkill · Post by **thryllkill** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:14 am

a wizards guild is a great idea. However, sorcerers are a solitary bunch, so a sorcerer's guild would probably be a hard sell to RP correctly. 
 
it has been a trial for me, to get out of the mind set that I have to level up to have a good time. With Perado, I am just kinda letting her develope. On occasion she will step foot outside the gate and freeze a gobbo or two. But for the most part she walks aroudn town, has an ale or two (or eight) once in a while, worries about the adventurers who venture out into the woods, avoids any lightfoots (those Hin are shifty)and all around pesters people. 
 
A near death experience (in a group) frightened her back to the town. About the only person she will leave town with is Ruben. Ruben's most recent brush with death shook her pretty badly as she had previously thought him invincible. 
 
blah blah, I am babbling. Like I said, it took a while to get out of the mindset that I gotta gotta gotta level up and now. But once I did I found a character I really really like to play, not to push into power. 
 
(I think you can tell by how much I gush about her)

Yyrkroon · Post by **Yyrkroon** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:18 pm

My concern with the performance contest and the like is that it would be more based on the player, rather than the character - unless its strictly roll based, and not role based. That tends to happen with fluffy RP; ie, allowing a silver tongued player's stone tongued character to out talk a stone tongued player's silver tongued character, etc... 
 
"*tells a tale*" @ (CHA 18 + perform 6) should be generally more effective than someone typing out the greatest works of Chaucer @ (CHA 12 + perform 0), as an extreme example. 
 
- 
Keep in mind, also, that we are playing adventurers, the wild heroes and villains who inspire other people to tell tales. I'd rather the spell casters (and I play a couple) buck up and earn their levels adventuring, unless they want to take a couple levels in commoner or some such.

Amirsyl · Post by **Amirsyl** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:07 pm

I've thrown my hat into the ring, so to speek, and started developing Elija. He is a wizard/cleric and is doing quite well thus far. He has one level of each and can stay outside the gates indeffinitely. 
 
He is human so he recieved 2 feats at first level. I took toughness and martial weapon prof. I know, why a weapon proficiency? Well, I want him to use a rapier for RP reasons. Anyway, He has a CON of 12 so his HP are at 16 with one level of each class. He can take a few hits just in case. 
 
His familiar is the Faerie Dragon. Again, RP purposes. This critter seems to fight goblins fairly adeptly. I have not lost her yet, and always stay aware of slingers and slashers. Plus, my mouse is always hovering over unsummon. 
 
I haven't been able to play much since Elija recieved his level of Cleric. But, I presume that it will enhance his, and his familiar's chances to survive. My fingers are crossed. 
 
I'd enjoy seeing a guild formed. As well as components made a little less rare to attain. Don't get me wrong, I don't think every shop should have them. I'd just like to see them become slightly more available. Perhaps a scroll shop is needed also. I don't know how much any of this would help. I just wanted you all to know that there is a new mage in town giving it a go. 
 
Amir'syl Jaden

Innuvindyl · Post by **Innuvindyl** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:10 pm

I just want to put in, that getting RP exp. is quite hard when you're not in the same time zone as the GMs. 
I try to get on in the late evenings but due to study and an exceessive need for alchohol in the weekeds <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> thats not always possible... 
I play a bard... and the idea of making a public perfomance has always been one of my favorites, but she won't do that just yet, as she hasn't got many a tale to sing... 
 
So I would warmly welcome some more alternate ways to get going... though OOC I can say that is works good to dual-fighter, and as long as the RP reasons are there it's fine, and it makes you stay alive...

Jeaze Mcleod · Post by **Jeaze Mcleod** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:49 pm

My solution to the problem of Wizards and Sorcerers is to Multiclass them. I have a Moon Elf that is a level 1 Rouge and 2 levels of Wizard (general). And thanks to the stealth skills of the Rouge class he has been able to survive so far. 
I also make "smart" use of my familiar and recall him back when it is inevitable for him to survive. 
The main problem here is that most of the good spells are beyond level 6 for a wizard... so we have to deal with whatever spells we have to the best of our abilities.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

Yyrkroon · Post by **Yyrkroon** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:52 pm

I'm not even certain there is a shortage of wiz/sor classes any longer, as there was when I first started on this server. 
 
I don't see many Bards, but I hardly see them in PnP either - its a distinctly inferior class in most regards, most of their draw is 'flavor' which is largely dependent on DM interaction.

bmm0321 · Post by **bmm0321** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:09 pm

The bard class is often seen as an "inferior" class. They don't have the hp of the fighting classes, even druids and clerics have more and fight better; the are probably the weakest of the spellcasters, at least initially; and their roguish abilities aren't up to par with their true rogue counterparts. 
 
Yet the blend of skills, if used properly, can create a very powerful character indeed. As mentioned, the bard comes into their own with DM intervention ... bits of lore and other information not readily accessible to other classes. 
 
In a party, this jack-of-all-trades class is a good standby fighter, a standby rogue, a standby healer, and a standby sorceror. Not such a bad deal for a party, eh? Let's not forget the effect that Bard Song can impart to the group during combat. 
 
The bard class gives one the ability to "multiclass" without truly multiclassing. My favorite PnP character was a bard (going back to 1st Ed.), he started a campaign (which lasted 3 years) with many other characters, and by the end of said campaign, he was the campaign's most powerful character ... because of his innate inquisitiveness, drive and charisma, he -became- the campaign, the one others looked to when the going got tough. 
 
The bottom line: the bard is just as effective as any other class if played properly. 
 
bmm 
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

The Vast

Encouraging the more difficult classes

Encouraging the more difficult classes

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